Catoblerone 2010-08-10 13:31:43

the fagelette also has a NG account btw

JazLyte 2010-08-10 13:32:13

Thanks for showing this, I'm new to the game art biz. I feel pretty cheated right now, because I'm working on a few commission animation projects right now for around $400-600. I've always said though that internet artists give it up too easily, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if all experienced GD's knew this shit. The only thing I can really say is that if you're getting started, you probably do want to show that you're capable of a quality collaboration for whatever money it takes, but after that I'll know what to avoid.

SirReginald 2010-08-10 13:36:05

I want to fucking kill someone right now! And everyone is agreeing with the fucking article agghhh sonuvabitch!

Where is the newgrounds account?!?!

Skeik 2010-08-10 13:37:35

Lol I would never give someone a flat rate for working on a flash game with me, especially since most times it's a joint project.

Anyone I work with, who does art at least, gets a percentage of what the final project makes. Usually half.

MrScriblam 2010-08-10 13:41:35

what an asshat!

I-smel 2010-08-10 14:16:45

I saw this on Tig yesterday. HERE'S WHAT I SAID:

Oh come on. Use guys on deviantart cos they're better and you can totally underpay them?
Make up deadlines you don't need so you can take money away when they don't hit em? That won't even help the game, that's just stupid.

Makes me think about sponsors I've worked with and thought they were bad at this; maybe they were just dicks :/

OH and I'm a dev. I don't need to hire artists, I jus do the whole damn thing.

I-smel 2010-08-10 14:24:58

lol 1092 comments

turtleco 2010-08-10 14:48:06

I almost punched the computer screen

sucho 2010-08-10 15:33:18

i agree with the article mostly. it could be interpreted as pretty demeaning, and yeah. i suppose it is. but by the same token it is moving people towards hiring prospective unknowns on NG, which cant be a bad thing. the only thing i would add is to really be clear and vivid with what you want from the artist. i've had a terrible time on commissions working with employers because they gave me very little artistic input or critique on my work. i myself, and i think most artists out there, want to create what is closest to the employer's wishes as possible, which requires said employer to be very confident and specific in their own ideas. giving us free reign usually just ends up in stagnant deadlines and very little collaboration.

NeoSkywalker 2010-08-10 16:54:30

lolwut

Lost-Chances 2010-08-10 17:06:51

I'm getting the weird feeling you could compare this to American low-skill jobs where they'd rather hire Mexicans who don't know concepts like minimum wage and ethics, than Americans who do. It's exploiting ignorance on the artist's part and it's turning it into a business. Coders should work with the artist and vice-versa, even if the coder is paying the artist.

What shouldn't be happening is treating the person who is working for you like shit, exploiting their lack of knowledge of their value and then making sure they're never on the same level by not giving them the full story.

By not giving them this kind of information, but not telling the artist "well, this game expects to sell for about £X", you trap them into being unable to even attempt to work out their worth. Even if it's just post-agreement banter (keep in mind, if the artist has already agreed to a price, they can't back out), the paying coder doesn't lose because if the artist wants to raise his price, he can't because they already made an agreement, and the artist finally gets out of the cycle of being ripped off.

Then again, I will admit that I also think businesses should stop treating their workers like absolute shit. Like that shit will ever happen.

Zyphonee 2010-08-10 17:11:32

People claiming that guy to be an idiot and demanding him to go commit self evisceration are the pinnacle of ignorance. If a person is completely unwilling to educate him/herself about economics and how much an artist's work is worth, then there is no place for complaints when people start making profit off them. An artist, after all, is a mere businessman, selling a product (or service, if you may) to a buyer, so if an artist refuses to sit for a minute and learn about his own business, it's nobody's fault but his own if he gets 'ripped off'.

imjeffhip 2010-08-10 17:14:28

I see his point in a sense cause if I was hiring I'd want to pay the least amount possible and I know kids on the internet will do it for free or just want credit. I don't like how he said pay at the end, cause some people end up not paying you and running off.

Even if you can trust someone, a contract is always a must. When the time comes, people you trust may still fuck you over if money is involved.

Dioccino 2010-08-10 17:43:53

Interesting article--I've read plenty of articles on how to *protect* yourself from such clients but never an article that clearly outlines how to more or less exploit one. It is kind of a shame that so many artists will undercut others in an attempt to get the upper hand. Although that's simply the nature of the business, I've seen artists that will sell themselves RIDICULOUSLY cheaper--this might yield some quick cash but it really hurts the field as a whole, just like this article outlines.

Just mentioning this for anyone interested in reading it... I learned a while ago that if you ever plan to go into work with someone, create a legally binding contract that simply protects you from all angles. Establish rules such as receiving a percentage of the total cost up-front, this way you have some incentive and the client has some investment. Also create and clarify deadlines of YOUR OWN and define extra fees for working over the deadline. Sometimes clients can keep extending the deadline or asking for alterations long after the initial agreement, and they can feel entitled to have you continue working on it because they paid that final amount. And always have this in a legally binding contract, preferably with faxed/scanned signatures. I dunno I guess that's all I gotta say. We all need to make a better effort of educating each other, so hopefully some of this was useful.

Fawx 2010-08-10 18:12:08

dont care

Nectarine 2010-08-10 18:19:34

Both the person hiring and the artist directly have equal shares of power in this case. Hiring a student usually means a decrease in cost, as does hiring overseas (in Bangladesh, you're upper-middle class if you make $2500/yr USD). $500 is a good rate for game art if the game is small and re-uses stuff a lot (ie platformer). I've seen casual games that could be designed in an afternoon and games that could take months to design -- two very different rates involved there obviously.

I always say to set a Reasonable deadline for a couple of reasons: A) it means no misunderstandings about when you want it, B) artist is more likely to get a bonus, C) easier to plan other aspects of the development.

Granted, I am but a lowly website dev, but that is how I see it from both sides of the freelancer fence.

He comes off as a douche, but I don't think he really meant to be. :P

Chickumbleh 2010-08-10 18:47:05

Perhaps it is because I am a programmer, but I'd have to disagree.
This article says that the person looking to hire has the power. A programmer could say "I'll give you $500 for the animations," but just as easily an artist could say "I'll give you $500 for the code."
I would probably just split the profits evenly with any other collaborators, unless their job is really small.

OmarShehata 2010-08-10 19:34:36

Really now? He's just doing his best to cut costs and maximize his profits, the fact that some artists undervalue their work isn't his problem. He's not forcing them to work for him, he asked them to give a price, and he gave them just that.

That, and he's doing an amazing job as a flash developer. He's only 16, and he's already earned $60,000 from his flash games. I mean the fact that one kid can stir all this up just proves to me how impressive he is. Even if not everyone agrees about his methods.

My 2 cents.

Civilized-Apocalypse 2010-08-10 21:04:19

he makes the artist sound like a real dumbass the way you put this. "lol dont worry make them price it, corner them so they give you what you want, lets rape their soul and not make this fair"
the only people that would price like a retard is going to be, of course a retard, and they will not have art skils your asking for. im telling you it will never happen you cannot find somone who has had years and years of practice in art that knows NOTHING about prices that just doesnt happen by the time theyre getting around good theyre beginning learning about prices and it catches on quickly
lets find this man hang him and burn the body in the streets of italy

Discourse 2010-08-24 06:16:46

No.
The majority of artists who have got their visual arts degrees-credentials have ALL had to play the game in order to manipulate the stupidity of the collective "Artsy fartsy" community.